SolForge is a free-to-play digital collectible game in which players construct their own decks to challenge their friends or battle against the computer. The current open beta version includes deckbuilding, collection management, online play, AI opponents, tournaments, drafts, and more.
Nutzerreviews: Größtenteils positiv (728 Reviews)

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Early Access-Spiel

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Was die Entwickler zu sagen haben:

“SolForge is now in open beta! Play for free and start building your collection now. Your feedback will help shape the development of the game!”
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Kürzliche Updates Alle anzeigen (12)

27. Februar

Reign of Varna is Live!

The Reign of Varna is upon us!

This release features 48 new cards to collect as well as the launch of Campaign!

You can read a full list of updates here:
http://solforgegame.com/patchnotes/

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6. Februar

Final World Cup Qualifier Tomorrow!

Final World Cup Qualifier is tomorrow!

If you're planning to participate, you'll need to purchase your entry and submit your decklists today!

You can catch the live coverage of our top players duking it out, at http://www.twitch.tv/forgewatch

Event Starts tomorrow at 9 AM Pacific
Deck list submission & Entry purchase deadline is 1 hour prior to the event.

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Reviews

"...one of the best demos on our showfloor."
Penny Arcade

"To say I’m excited for the game would be a dramatic understatement."
5/5 – Game Informer

"SolForge is visually stunning. The art is glowing and beautiful. Casting your creatures and spells is smooth."
Legit MTG

"With deck building, draft tournaments and multiplayer raids, I think SolForge is going to set a new trend in online mobile card gaming."
Geeks With Juniors

"Looks fantastic...I was able to jump in and start playing right away"
http://www.wired.com/geekdad/2012/08/solforge-looking-good/

Über dieses Spiel

SolForge is a free-to-play digital collectible game in which players construct their own decks to challenge their friends or battle against the computer. The current open beta version includes deckbuilding, collection management, online play, AI opponents, tournaments, drafts, and more. Players can customize their decks with cards from their collection that they can earn through gameplay or purchase from the store. Try it now absolutely free!

The full release of SolForge will feature all of the strategy and tactics of a full-fledged CCG, including a single-player campaign mode, co-operative raids, and more. Unlike other online collectible games. SolForge was designed specifically for the digital space, with smooth game play and an intuitive interface.

The core mechanic in SolForge is leveling. Whenever you play a card, that card levels up into a new, more powerful version. As the game progresses, you level up, and gain access to your more powerful higher level cards. Some cards start off weak and level up into powerhouses, while others start off strong and don't improve much as they level, presenting strategic and tactical choices that will challenge even the most seasoned gaming veterans.

Key Features

  • Challenge your friends or play against AI opponents with multiple levels of difficulty
  • Simple to learn, difficult to master.
  • Tutorial to get you playing right away
  • Unique leveling mechanic transforms your cards as you play
  • Online Play
  • Deck Customization
  • Tournaments and Draft Mode

Planned Features

  • New Cards
  • Card Forging System
  • Campaign Mode
  • Cooperative Raids
  • Animated Cards
  • And more!

Systemvoraussetzungen

    Minimum:
    • OS:Windows Vista
    • Memory:1 GB RAM
    • Graphics:256MB DirectX 9.0c compatible video card
    • Hard Drive:200 MB HD space
    • Sound:DirectX 9.0c compatible sound card
    Recommended:
    • OS:Windows 8
    • Memory:4 GB RAM
    • Graphics:512MB DirectX 9.0c compatible video card
    • Hard Drive:500 MB HD space
    • Sound:DirectX 9.0c compatible sound card
Hilfreiche Kundenreviews
1 von 1 Personen (100%) fanden dieses Review hilfreich
863.3 Std. insgesamt
Verfasst: 4. Februar
Early Access-Review
Hallo zusammen,
ich spiele Solforge nun schon bereits seit ca. September 2013, und was soll ich sagen? Ich liebe es! Es ist komplett f2p spielbar. Natürlich sollte man in diesem Fall nicht erwarten, sofort die besten Karten zur Verfügung zu haben. Alleine durch das Erspielen der möglichen Dailies ist es jedoch möglich, nach einiger Zeit (ca. einige Wochen bis ein paar Monate) eine schöne Collection an verfügbaren Karten zu erspielen.

Das Gameplay finde ich super gelungen. Das gespielte Karten in der nächsten Runde als aufgelevelte Version erscheinen können habe ich so noch in keinem anderen Kartenspiel erlebt - ich finds klasse.

Natürlich hängt der Ausgang einer Partie auch etwas vom Glück der jeweils gezogenen Karten ab, was auch mit zum Reiz des Spiels beiträgt. So ist es auch als Spieler mit weniger guten Karten möglich, gegen jemanden mit besseren Karten zu gewinnen, falls dieser das Pech auf seiner Seite hat. Kurz und knapp: Wie es in einem jeden Kartenspiel nun mal sein sollte!

Zusammenfassend möchte ich eine klare Empfehlung für dieses Game aussprechen. Mochtet oder mögt ihr Magic oder ein sonstiges Sammelkartenspiel, lohnt sich ein Blick in Solforge auf jeden Fall!
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3 von 5 Personen (60%) fanden dieses Review hilfreich
59.9 Std. insgesamt
Verfasst: 21. Dezember 2014
Early Access-Review
SubJaeger empfiehlt... SolForge (deutsch)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CXm1Kp-geU
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55 von 77 Personen (71%) fanden dieses Review hilfreich
1 Person fand dieses Review lustig
391.1 Std. insgesamt
Verfasst: 11. Januar
Early Access-Review
This game has serious flaws that do not appear to be intended to be addressed, at least as far as i am able to see.

When playing a timed match quite often the opponent will simply stop playing if it appears they are going to lose the match and wait for you to concede or attempt to play right before time out in hopes you are no longer paying attention.

There are many threads on the steam forums, reddit and even solforge forums and i have not seen any sort of reply from official staff.

If you look at the steam forums you will find examples like this:

"Budlyte has SolForge 3 Jan @ 8:40am
Then how will I get my 3 wins of the day?

I don't bother playing people to get my 3 wins each day, instead each morning I simply spend 10 minutes starting a bunch of games then I come back to it in the evening and open my 2 chests then clear out all the dead games. Repeat the same thing the next day. Been doing this for a while now, haven't opened any of those packs, don't have any of the new cards in my available, but I still get my wins e'ery day. Even the ones I don't win are still, in some soul crushing way to my opponent, a win.

Thank you for playing my game. =D"

This is seriously annoying and takes all the fun out of the game for the people who actually put the time and money into playing it.

I am now quitting this game and recommend anyone considering the game to do a little research before investing in it, as there are numerous other problems as well.

Card releases structured to pull you into investing constantly in new cards that will be outclassed or nerfed shortly after release.

Games being very random, with skill oftentimes seeming to have little to do with it. It is quite common for example to draw hands full of tier one cards on round four or higher while your opponent draws higher tier cards and vice versa.

ETC
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25 von 30 Personen (83%) fanden dieses Review hilfreich
1 Person fand dieses Review lustig
331.0 Std. insgesamt
Verfasst: 18. Januar
Early Access-Review
Coming from a long time MTG Player and Hearthstone player I really enjoy this game. I got turned on to it because I found out a long time MTG pro named Brian Kibler was one of the driving forces of this game.

This game seems to be one of the best games to limit the amount of randomness that can happen in games that have a resource system. You get to play 2 cards a turn (as long as they have targets when applicable), discard your hand at end of turn and draw 5 again. Whenever you play a card a leveled up version goes into your discard pile which gets reshuffled into your deck every 4 turns. So there's a neat strategy in which cards you play and when. Most cards have 3 different levels (with some having 4 and some that are just 1 but that get buffed based on what turn it is). All combat takes place in lanes (5 of them) which creates some interesting strategy.

You can buy packs and gold in the game but you don't have to. You only need to win 3 games a day to get all the special bonuses (which include packs/cards and silver) and you also get tickets for tournaments. My favorite game mode is there version of draft. You start off with 6 cards that are figured out based on a logarithm of which cards get picked higher. No waiting on other players to choose their cards as yours are all generated just for you. It's a nice approximation of a traditional magic drafting but without having to get 8 players gathered and without waiting for others to choose their cards,
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14 von 17 Personen (82%) fanden dieses Review hilfreich
2 Personen fanden dieses Review lustig
30.3 Std. insgesamt
Verfasst: 24. Januar
Early Access-Review
First of all I would like to say that I'm in a grey zone if I like this game or not.
The Drafts/Tournaments are super fun while the regular vs-mode is "meh", and if you plan to play a lot of drafts this game will probably require money.

I would also like to point out some of the reviews I've seen here. Some reviews claim this game is pay to win. It is not. If you think about it any TCG is "pay to win" at the start. You should never start playing a TCG with the belief that you're going to be on par with players that have played several weeks more than you, it doesn't work that way. This is the nature of any TCG. You can't believe that you will be able to beat any player with more experience and invested time than you in any TCG with your starter pack. Be it an IRL TCG or a computer TCG.

Let's compare SolForge to some other TCG's like Hearthstone and Scrolls. In all these three games you can pay real money for booster packs. Does that make them pay to win? Well, maybe. But let's compare them to some IRL TCG's... NO WAY! You pay MONEY for CARDS that may or may not be better than mine!?!?!++ PAY TO WIN!!! PAY TO WIN!!!

You see how silly this becomes? Yes, a core element in a TCG is that it IS pay to win. But in all the TCG's I mentioned above there is the option to "grind" for in-game gold that you can buy cards for, and doing casual drafts in SolForge will surely get you started!

Another complain I've seen is that some reviews claim RNG is a major part of SolForge. I'm baffled.
In SolForge you play with a deck with 30 cards. You are allowed to have 3 copies of a single card. This means that you could make a deck of just 10 separate cards (such constistency!). In SolForge you discard your hand (5 cards) and draw a new hand every turn (in which you may play 2 of them). This means that you in theory can go through one copy of each of your cards in just two turns, and there are a lot of cards with good synergy!
Compare this to Hearthstone. You can have 2 copies of a single card and a maximum of 30 cards. This means 15 different cards in your deck, minimum! You can also only draw one card every turn (with some exceptions). This means that you would need atleast 15 turns to go through each separate card in your deck.
It does not take a math genius to tell the difference between 2 and 15...

Except from this the whole "So much RNG"-point is strange since RNG is a core element in any TCG. Some TCGs have more and others less.

TLDR; Do not listen to the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ reviews, try the game because you may or may not like it.
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11 von 12 Personen (92%) fanden dieses Review hilfreich
14.4 Std. insgesamt
Verfasst: 8. Februar
Early Access-Review
At the moment I dont see how any new player could possible be competitive in this game without spending huge ammounts of money, also its very clear that this game is in early access as its missing some really important features. Unless alot changes this game should be avoided.
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9 von 9 Personen (100%) fanden dieses Review hilfreich
164.0 Std. insgesamt
Verfasst: 17. März
Early Access-Review
SolForge may seem like just another online card game but there's more here than meets the eye, with apologies to Optimus Prime and his cohorts.

These days, the online TCG market doesn't offer much elbow room, with competing products all over the place, the most notorious of which is the 800-lb gorilla called "Hearthstone." I'm happy to say that SolForge doesn't really compete with Blizzard red-hot card game in quite the same arena - SolForge has far more gameplay depth and a much more clever design while still offering very easy-to-learn rules and a similar level of accessibility to what Hearthstone provides. It's this combination of depth with simplicity that puts it above its chief competitor, in my opinion. Also, much like Hearthstone, SolForge doesn't offer card-play opportunities during your opponent's turn and this is the main way that complexity is kept at a reasonable level during play.

Yes, the usual elements are all there - excellent card art, a clever gameplay twist (cards level up as you play them, becoming more powerful over time), and a solid back-end system to help players want to play just one more game as they strive to collect full sets of cards. That's where SolForge shines compared to even Blizzard's generous card game - it has - bar none - the most generous free-2-play model I've seen yet. All players have to do is log in once each day to get Silver and booster packs while winning your first game and then another 2 games (easily done against the weakest level of AI) grants players even more rewards (Event tickets and more silver & booster packs). The community, also, is one of the best I've seen online - very friendly, helpful, and generous even.

There are a few blemishes on what is otherwise a top-notch online TCG experience. The PC version's UI is still somewhat clunky, not going full-screen nor offering many modern UI elements and features. For example, I can't push the game up into high-res graphics despite owning a very nice partial-4K monitor. Still, SBE claims that it's in the pipeline to be fixed and I have little reason to doubt them at this point. Sound is basic but acceptable and the game's 4 factions all seem unique and balanced among themselves. Players can choose from Uterra (Big creatures of nature, Buff Spells), Nekrium (undead and kill spells), Tempys (Aggressive creatures and fiery damage spells), and finally, Alloyin (the control faction composed of robots and cards that level up other cards). New sets have been coming out fairly reguarly and nothing has really broken the game, yet, and if something did, the Devs are very quick to jump on the issues, so I'm not terribly concerned about that issue.

I'd rate this a hearty 9 out of 10 if you love card games and a 7.9 out of 10 otherwise. Highly recommended and a great value for the cost (which is free)!
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29 von 46 Personen (63%) fanden dieses Review hilfreich
1 Person fand dieses Review lustig
650.0 Std. insgesamt
Verfasst: 1. November 2014
Early Access-Review
After many hours in this game and putting money into it, STAY AWAY.

The developers have not listened to the community, have not patched or balanced things, updates are few and far between and the game is just simply broken.

I would love to recommend this game to friends, but how can you when the game has been in early access for so long, plays like a beta, is missing features, and still hasn't been updated.

If you are a new player, it gets even worse, you can't even compete with the rng or pay to win cards.
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8 von 8 Personen (100%) fanden dieses Review hilfreich
2.9 Std. insgesamt
Verfasst: 28. Januar
Early Access-Review
So apparently this game was made early last year? Graphics aren't everything for sure, but this game looks like it could've been made a few years ago as one of those completely free flash games. While playing Solforge I've been trying to look past it, but unfortunately this game has too many parts that seem to have been totally overlooked.

My biggest complaints:
No tutorial that goes beyond "drag and drop to play your cards, press these obvious buttons to end your turn, here's a quick explanation for the leveling and rank system, here's how spells and effects sorta-work, good luck!". The game doesn't really explain the various factions in any form or the way that thier ally abilities work, now does it go on to explain any sort of basic strategy in this game at all. There's so much missing for a game that's already a year old.

The card balance is pretty bad. There are several cards that are simply better than other ones. There are several clones of Zombie Soldier that have the same stats as well as an added effect, for instance.

There's no undo button, which is pretty vital for a card game. You can't undo any actions whatsoever. This is especially annoying when you start to realize the full potential of the battle and turn phases being seperated.

The interface as a whole isn't as streamlined as it could be. It works better than most games that have recently come out, with thier 20 buttons and 50 menus at least, but it's much nicer to click on a button that says "settings" over fishing around for a cog symbol....

There's only 4 factions, and no lore. I don't understand why factions even exist except to have those little ally effects, but almost all of the ally effects pool into Tempys so they don't matter very much.

There are too many similar cards, except for spell cards. The spell cards tie into my aforementioned gripes about the card balance in this game, where one faction has many powerful spell cards while another faction has some OK ones to get by on. I could understand it if 1 of the factions had particularly strong spells and particularly weak creatures, but this isn't the case. Because half of the monsters in this game could be clones with very minor stat differences.

In summary, I'm glad that I got these starter packs in a huge Humble Bundle, because I would have regret my starter pack puchase if I had not. I'm going back to Infinity Wars, I'll take its' more punishing economy over this game's less fun, less explodey, less varietal gameplay.
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7 von 7 Personen (100%) fanden dieses Review hilfreich
5.0 Std. insgesamt
Verfasst: 21. Februar
Early Access-Review
Interesting take on the CCG where you don't have resources to play, just limited number of plays per turn. I wanted to like it, especially since it has an Android port which meant I could play it on the go. Something Hearthstone has just recently added. The single player vs AI is smooth and decent for trying out new decks and getting daily rewards. However, the problem, and why I have to say not recommended, comes from the abyssmal responsiveness and overall laggy feeling of any actual multi-player game. I have a feeling since it has an Android port, even on the PC it doesn't stay connected to game servers and only periodically communicates. In multiplayer games that seems to be when you finish your turn or your opponent finishes theirs. Occasionally I've seen part of an opponent turn, then wait 30 seconds, then the 2nd part of their turn. I guess they needed to think. It feels very rough and unfinished and doesn't stand up to Hearthstone or MTG. I wanted to like it. But I don't.
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7 von 7 Personen (100%) fanden dieses Review hilfreich
3,409.4 Std. insgesamt
Verfasst: 17. Februar
Early Access-Review
I love the game and still play it everyday. I still can't recommend it to others though, for the many reasons already listed in the negative reviews. I really only draft myself, and running into players that run the clock down so often kills the experience. Having to to wait 15+ minutes to be able to move on to the next draft game about 1 out of 8 games is very frustrating.

I'm a free to play player, and they time the new releases to come out just as the last release finally comes down to the regular silver (in game currency) price. So if you want to try and play with the big boys you either have to pay double silver for the newest Legendary cards or spend money. I'm not sure if it's power creep or not, but the top decks always have the newest cards in them.

They recently lowered the tournament payouts again to make it nearly impossible to go infinite in draft as well.

It's free to check it out, and if your personal play style (expectations) might fit with the game, so it's probably worth the time to take a look, but I wouldn't feel right recommending Solforge in its current state
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9 von 12 Personen (75%) fanden dieses Review hilfreich
2 Personen fanden dieses Review lustig
29.8 Std. insgesamt
Verfasst: 23. Januar
Early Access-Review
This is a fun ccg with an interesting mechanic of leveling up the cards you use. I've only been playing for two days at this point, but I've made a few observations so far. The game offers lots of rewards daily, with one for signing in, one for your first win against the AI, and one more for your third win against the AI. These three can be completed in less than 10 minutes and will net you the regular ingame currency, new cards, and a booster every day. If you win an online match, you also get an event ticket which can be used in various tournaments, including a booster draft where you get to keep the 30 cards you use.

On the down side, the cards I've seen so far point to this being either pay to win or patience to win. The heroic and legendary cards are much more powerful than the common and rare ones.

Overall, I'd say give the game a try, but don't spend money unless you really love it.
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4 von 4 Personen (100%) fanden dieses Review hilfreich
74.7 Std. insgesamt
Verfasst: 26. Februar
Early Access-Review
Edit: The day after I wrote this, the Varna expansion was released. Blatant powercreep, a lack of limitations on legendary cards, and ridiculous powers for those legendary cards has basically turned matches into the typical who-has-better-cards and curtailed the amount of strategy in the game. There is no purpose to owning any cards othen than the top 2 out of 5 tiers for the most part, with a few exceptions. Sadly, you'll only get a legendary chest about once a month as a free player, and considering the ridiculous price of a single chest, it's kinda tough to justify the purchase, especially knowing the next set will powercreep your collection out of the game.

While I'm gonna stick around for a bit and hope the tide changes, it's pretty difficult to recommend right now.
~~~
I've been pleasantly surprised by this game. While there is a power advantage to having rarer cards, there is enough of a synergy requirement, and a large enough playerbase, to prevent it from being too annoying thus far.

The card-leveling mechanic is really engaging and refreshing. It adds progression to a CCG that isn't found elsewhere, along with another strategic layer. The small deck size (30) helps mitigate the odds of not drawing the card you want. This creats a slight negative in that deck variety is a little limited, but after 100 wins (which I reference because that's the achievement that just came up) I'm still excited to load up a match.

The tounaments are a lot of fun, and seem to be pretty accessible (~2 per week as a free player, maybe more). I got in through the Humble Bundle, which gave me 2 starter decks, and I've been pretty competitive (though I wouldn't recommend buying the packs, as the cards have been powercreeped out), winning at least half my games, though I have a lot of CCG experience. The 4 factions have distinct styles, and seem very well balanced.

The interface leaves a LOT to be desired, but it gets the job done. Hopefully it gets a serious makeover in the near future.
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4 von 4 Personen (100%) fanden dieses Review hilfreich
39.7 Std. insgesamt
Verfasst: 1. März
Early Access-Review
Greedy game, has a good idea but still too greedy and those with money have an obvious advantage.
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4 von 5 Personen (80%) fanden dieses Review hilfreich
1.4 Std. insgesamt
Verfasst: 24. Januar
Early Access-Review
Not worth getting into as it seems by now, terrible power creep, mostly pay to win structure.
Would have had great potential, but they trainwrecked it solidly.
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5 von 7 Personen (71%) fanden dieses Review hilfreich
82.3 Std. insgesamt
Verfasst: 10. Februar
Early Access-Review
Having just uninstalled the game after 70 hours of playtime the reason can be summed up to a single word "greed". Now as a gamer one has to think what is the value I am getting for my money. When I compare the value I have gotten for my money from current master of digital CCG's Hearthstone one has to conclude that Solforge is a ripoff in comparison.

There are a few reasons for this lack of value:

A) The rewards for tournaments are weak for example one has to win all matches to get enough game's F2P currency of silver to play another.

B)The rewards for playing the game are at most an insult i.e. you will get 100 silver per win and less than 10k for dailies and you need 60k(casual) or 140k(competative) to enter a draft so you do the math.

C)So as the prices of everything are beyond reach of F2P currency one has to spend a lot of money in order to actually play the game and then feel bad as you will probably lose at the tournament and get nothing for you money.

Now obviously as I spent over 70 hours on the game I actually liked the game mechanics, but come to realize that I like roller coaster rides as well but doing them daily is just not economically viable. So back to Hearthstone wherein I am happy to spend some money as I don't feel rippedoff at the end of it all.
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6 von 9 Personen (67%) fanden dieses Review hilfreich
22.0 Std. insgesamt
Verfasst: 1. Februar
Early Access-Review
This game is incredibly lop-sided. The fact that upgraded cards are way more powerful than those that are not makes it so that the luck of the draw is way more important than actual skill.

The fact that this game is p2w in it's most shameful way doesn't really help it either.
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6 von 9 Personen (67%) fanden dieses Review hilfreich
0.9 Std. insgesamt
Verfasst: 22. Januar
Early Access-Review
I'm curious to keep digging into the game, but there are two things that are necessary.

1) Some kind of in-game poke/chat for when your opponent isn't moving.
2) You need to get some sort of reward in a F2P game whether you win or lose. In a F2P game I'm "paying" with my time and it needs to be rewarded.
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10 von 17 Personen (59%) fanden dieses Review hilfreich
112.4 Std. insgesamt
Verfasst: 8. Oktober 2014
Early Access-Review
Update: 05/12/2014

Since the last update the game as gone from P2W to SuperP2W. Now the people who pays can trade cards making them even more powerful than the free players.

As a free player, after opening hundreds of free packs and 4 legendary chest i have only collected 17 legendary cards, no even one of these are one of the more know powerful legendaries.

My conclusion is that free players dont really get good cards, for that you have to pay. So for all people interested in playing take into account that only if you are willing to pay you can have a posibility to win in this game.

Free players dont bother with this game.

08/10/2014
Like all cards games is a P2W. You only can obtain free cards 3 times a day, whit the first login, whit the first win and whit the 3rd one. The cards you receive are random and fluctuate from a pack of six cards to only one of any rarity. Like this you can get only 3 green cards daily (the lower quality) and be done. This is insane, how can you imporve your cards if you maybe only get 3 greens a day? So you have to pay. You can buy packs for silver but taking into account that you only earn like 6000 silver whit the daily rewards and that PvP only give you 100 silver for a winned match ( who normally take like 20 minutes to end) you can only affort to buy one pack a day, so another 6 cards to add to the 3 of the dailys, not really too much, right?

And theres only that in the game, free PvP (you enter in a MM who put any other player agains you) and tournaments who are full of people who have payed her way in (full of decks of legendary cards). Nothing more, no campaing no nothing ( i dont count the PvCPU who is based only in the basic decks of the game and very easy to beat).

You can have fun for the firts hours of gameplay, after that you crash to the wall who is the P2W and the game becomes much less fun.

In resume, stay away and dont lose your time here.
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2 von 2 Personen (100%) fanden dieses Review hilfreich
766.2 Std. insgesamt
Verfasst: 24. Februar
Early Access-Review
Unbalanced cards, expensive Pay to Win, noticable powercreep, no turn timer, and extremely luck based gameplay will make you regret ever playing this game and wasting your time on it like i did.

It started out very promising, but went only downhill. Its not even a real trading card game like mtg - there is no actual trading. Only a very confusing and easily abusable and unreliable way of "cardsharing". Hell it lacks almost every feature possible! All there is to do is 1on1 online dailyfarming and draft. It will get boring and repetitive very fast.

BEGINNERS BEWARE - it is nearly impossible to catch up with building your cardpool as f2p-booster contain cards from every release and there is a new release every 3 months with minireleases in between and doing your dailys will be chore due to the suckiness of the starter decks.
Do yourself a favor and stay away from this.
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