The desperate leadership of a doomed Soviet Union travels back in time to change history and restore the glory of Mother Russia. The time travel mission goes awry, creating an alternate timeline where technology has followed an entirely different evolution, a new superpower has been thrust on to the world stage, and World War III is...
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매우 긍정적 (평가 59 개) - 83% of the 59 user reviews in the last 30 days are positive.
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출시 날짜: 2008년 10월 28일

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Command & Conquer: Red Alert 3 구매

 

Multiplayer

  • Note: As of June 2014, our friends at GameSpy have ended all hosted game services, which will affect the online multiplayer aspect of this game. Because of technical challenges and concerns, EA does not have a solution to keep these services up and running at this time, and online services for this game and other EA games on the GameSpy platform have ended. 


게임에 대해


The desperate leadership of a doomed Soviet Union travels back in time to change history and restore the glory of Mother Russia. The time travel mission goes awry, creating an alternate timeline where technology has followed an entirely different evolution, a new superpower has been thrust on to the world stage, and World War III is raging. The Empire of the Rising Sun has risen in the East, making World War III a three-way struggle between the Soviets, the Allies, and the Empire with armies fielding wacky and wonderful weapons and technologies like Tesla coils, heavily armed War Blimps, teleportation, armored bears, intelligent dolphins, floating island fortresses, and transforming tanks.

  • Star-Studded Storytelling — Command & Conquer's trademark live-action videos return in HD, with over 60 minutes of footage featuring the largest cast in the history of the Command & Conquer franchise.
  • Command the Seas, Conquer the World — Experience Gameplay as for the first time in the series, waging war on the water will be every bit as important as dominating by land and air. Gain strategic advantages by controlling resources in the seas and mounting three-pronged attacks from all directions.
  • Ready your Man Cannons! — Armored War Bears, and Anime-inspired psychic school girls join your favorite Red Alert units like Sonic Dolphins, Tesla Troopers, Attack Dogs, and the ever popular Tanya.
  • A New Threat From the East — The deadly Empire of the Rising Sun is a technological terror, with designs influenced by a mixture of anime, science-fiction, martial arts and robot culture. The Empire's futuristic units can transform into alternate forms, and they specialize in naval warfare.

시스템 요구 사항

    • Supported OS: Microsoft Windows® XP SP2, Windows Vista (32-bit)
    • Processor: Any Intel Core Duo machine; XP: Intel Pentium 4 2.2 GHz or better, AMD Athlon XP 2100+ or better; Vista: Intel Pentium 4 2.6 GHz or better, AMD Athlon XP 2800+ or better
    • Memory: 1 GB RAM
    • Graphics: DirectX® 9.0c compatible video card, NVIDIA GeForce 6800 or better, ATI Radeon X800 or better
    • Hard Drive: At least 10 GB of free space
    • Sound: DirectX® 9.0c compatible sound card (Yamaha Xwave-512 is not supported)
    • Multiplayer: 2 - 6 players with optional voice support, network or Internet connection required (Cable, DSL or faster connection).
    • INTERNET CONNECTION, ONLINE AUTHENTICATION AND ACCEPTANCE OF END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT REQUIRED TO PLAY. TO ACCESS ONLINE FEATURES, YOU MUST REGISTER ONLINE. ONLY ONE REGISTRATION IS AVAILABLE PER GAME. EA ONLINE TERMS & CONDITIONS AND FEATURE UPDATES CAN BE FOUND AT WWW.EA.COM. YOU MUST BE 13+ TO REGISTER WITH EA ONLINE. EA MAY RETIRE ONLINE FEATURES AFTER 30 DAYS NOTICE POSTED ON WWW.EA.COM.
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매우 긍정적 (평가 59 개)
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매우 긍정적 (평가 2,239 개)
Recently Posted
Ragnaman
( 13.8 시간 기록 )
게시 일시: 2016년 5월 28일
Install RA2 and be happy.

The ugly of RA3:
- Bad voice acting
- Clunky UI (UI elements take approximately 30% of your screen)
- Colour palette (Generals on acid)
- Every unit with "skillz" feels like warcraft not Red Alert


Here you go, this game in a nutshell:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=360885558
타락천사 (검은나비)
( 11.3 시간 기록 )
게시 일시: 2016년 5월 27일
c&c 시리즈의 정통 후계자이자 마지막 게임이라 불리우는 적색경보3(개그얼럿)입니다. 이름을 말하는 그게임을 제외한다면 확실히 정통후계자임이 분명합니다. 적절한 그래픽 당시 스타크래프트2에서 나올법한 핵심시스템등 요즘 스타2 협동전에서 사용되는 모든 바탕되는 요소가 다 여기 이게임에 있습니다. 비록 멀티를 즐기는 분이 아니라해도 싱글만 즐기시는분이라면 충분히 살만한 (세일때) 가치가 있습니다. 물론 멀티플레이는 비록 서버의 망으로 이젠 못하지만 막판 까지 연합군의 항공모함(장기전) 빈디케이터(단기전)의 벨런스가 안맞았지만 말입니다. 허나 충분히 매력적 플랫폼이였고이게임을 마지막으로 c&c시리즈가 완전히 문을 닫은건 안타깝습니다.이게임을 하고 좀더 많은 색다른 경험을 하고 싶다면 업라이징도 해보는 편을 추천합니다.
훌륭한 ost 헬마치 덕에 하는분도 많지만 말이죠
Ser Thomas of the Beard
( 8.1 시간 기록 )
게시 일시: 2016년 5월 27일
This game is known moreso for its soundtrack than its gameplay, but that said it isn't a bad game in the slightest, taking key elements from its predecessors; certain rich plot points, and the top-down realtime strategy aspects. But none of that interested me.

What interested me most was Tim Curry as the big bad Russian Premier Cherdenko... It's Tim ♥♥♥♥ing Curry!
walldrill
( 95.2 시간 기록 )
게시 일시: 2016년 5월 27일
Gameplay:
Red alert 3 oversees an interesing transition from RA2, incorporating numerous alternations to the gameplay that allows the game to be more tense as the designs shift more to what you will see in a serios RTS-- most prominently, ore becomes a confined resource which cannot be harvested exponentially by cramming your build order with harvesters. Units can be categorized into anti-infantry and anti-armor. Main battle tanks may be terrifyingly effective against armor yet at the same time they require five to six shots to kill some of the most cheapest infanty, which indeed is hard to grasp at first. As such, attacks emphasize on the cooperation of different units spamming only one type of unit would not bring you anywere. Micromanaging becomes vital through the concept of 'crushing levels' where infantry are subject to be crushed by incoming tanks while tanks are subject to be flattened by even bigger vehicles. Several secondary abilities and attack formations of the different factions also heavily rely on micromanaging.

The single player campaign is also incredibly entertaining. I loved the cutscenes shot in real person. The humorous plot is mildly funny and worth a laugh.

Graphics:
Absolutely brilliant special effects with breathtakingly beautiful water. Personally I prefer the rather vibrant hue in RA3 instead of other CNC games or Starcraft. Antialiasing options lags the computer more than smoothing out the edges, however the game does not suffer from antialiasing issues much even without AA turned on.

Annoying bugs:
The pathfinding system is a total mess.
Sometimes units would take a full round trip around the building it just came out of before heading anywhere else.
Units getting stuck on the road for no reason.
Highly expensive naval fleet would randomly be stuck on the shoreline, becoming virtually worthless.
Units would line up and move single-filed, slowing each other down.
Nanocores of the Empire unable to deploy and stop en-route for no reason on certain maps

EA:
The experience for the game would be much smoother if it wasn't published by EA. RA3 had great multiplayer potential as with the introduction of the competitive aspects to the game. However, the servers in charge of hosting RA3 online closed down and there has only been a community supported server ever since, and the popularty of the RA3 community has been ever plummeting since. You won't find as much players nowadays as compared to when the gamespy servers were still online, and as a result matchmaking is almost impossible due to the tiny amount of players still playing the game.

Overall, the Red Alert 3 is a great game that could be great fun to play no matter by yourself or with others. However I certainly don't think that it is worth this price due to EA's unresponsible attitude towards this game. Buy it if you have some spare money to have fun with, but it is not on the must-have list.
C_O
( 37.8 시간 기록 )
게시 일시: 2016년 5월 25일
Has a mixed feeling about this game.

In terms of gameplay itself: 9/10
We can only choose 3 different nations in RA3, but each nation has its specialty (no just in terms of units, but also building/commanding style). Choose the correct nation for different difficulty (solo) or coop is critical to win the battle.
Each unit has its own skill as well as its strength and weaknesses. Grouping complimentary units is essential to win as an assault or a defend. The age of bring 5 apocalypse tanks or Prism Tank and Mirage Tank combination to wipe out enemy base is gone. :(
Another big change is that it is harder to attack miner. Ore refinery can only be built near ore mine and you can easily build towers near it to defend. Ore collectors can also drive on water (or building offshore ore refinery), which makes the tricks of cutting enemies economy harder to do.
With all these new features comparing to RA1 and RA2, RA3 requires more strategies and more skills, adding tons of fun to this game.

But in term of the value of game / EA tries to express: 0/10
I have to give this game a thumb down. Just like all the other EA's war related games, EA never gave up the opportunity to insult Russia/China/Japan... and keep brainwash/blind us to treat them as a threat (i know this is just a game, but this is not the first time that EA did this) So seriously, why does EA keep treating us like 12 year-old kids?
Dan
( 35.6 시간 기록 )
게시 일시: 2016년 5월 23일
Awesome
the_derped_offender_12
( 8.7 시간 기록 )
게시 일시: 2016년 5월 23일
A fun command and conquer game with a fair amount of missions. It can be difficult, but the difficulty enhances the enjoyability. The choice of three different campaigns makes for an interesting tangle of stories.
Lano
( 4.1 시간 기록 )
게시 일시: 2016년 5월 23일
Rush = win. Very nice
kahless2001
( 5.3 시간 기록 )
게시 일시: 2016년 5월 22일
I hope EA burn in Hell for all the amazing games they're ruined.
Wafflez!
( 34.0 시간 기록 )
게시 일시: 2016년 5월 20일
Game is very fun and has a bit of humor involved. I LOVED the live action scenes and the pretty girls you get to look at are a plus. Fun game for anyone who loves RTS's
{Okb} Vinyl
( 10.1 시간 기록 )
게시 일시: 2016년 5월 20일
Product received for free
Great, fantastic, marvelous game, killed by EA when Gamespy went down. Steam is not very accurate about "Singleplayer" mark, lan works, but online and coop are down (forever, sigh). I am not recommending it because there's absolutely no point in buying it and paying EA for absolutely nothing. Without online and coop it's worthless, it's the same thing as downloading pirated game. Lan and Campaign work on pirated ones too.

You know what is hilarious though? When I played RA2 on Origin (got it for free there), I was asked by Origin "what can we do to make the game better?" and I just rofl'd. EA didn't give a damn about RA3 and they are asking what can be done to RA2.
Frost Richtofen
( 62.9 시간 기록 )
게시 일시: 2016년 5월 17일
I've been a fan for the Command and Conquer series ever since Generals, and this game lived up to it's name (Unlike 4, which completely abolished one of the main cores of the game; Base Building)

From raging sea battles to earth-shattering land conquest, to air superiority; this game holds an incredible amount of replay value.

The epic score will kick in when your base suddenly screams for help as your foes try to take you down, or when you build a sizeable army to take the fight straight into the heart of your enemy's fortress.

Even if you haven't played any C&C games before, as long as you have a depriving thirst for an RTS game, then this is definietely for you.

(There are a few mods for this game, and many downloadable maps, some even with custom scripts to amplify the gameplay and to suit your tastes of war)

This is my own opinion; I might sound biased, but I just can't get enough of RTS.
MatThib
( 24.0 시간 기록 )
게시 일시: 2016년 5월 15일
I loved Red Alert 2 and I like almost all C&Cs. But this one has just too many boobs to be taken seriously.
Some ideas are nice, but it is blatantly targeted to lonely teenagers and that's just not my thing.
c64x
( 197.7 시간 기록 )
게시 일시: 2016년 5월 8일
THE BEST real time strategy war game ever. Period. Even after all these years this is stll a benchmak. Controls are flowless, the IA is great (and may be too smart sometimes especaly on skirmish mode). Sound is great and graphics even for todays (2016) have nothing to be ashamed on. Red alert 3 is by far the game I played probably the most along the years.
There nothing like the original , and this is the original.
If you like strategy war game you must own it.
Kuuranpuraus
( 32.6 시간 기록 )
게시 일시: 2016년 5월 7일
EA actually made a proper C&C game
CorvusCorax
( 0.3 시간 기록 )
게시 일시: 2016년 5월 7일
+ uses the updated version of the Sage engine, the one that debuted in Generals: the effects (especially the water effects) look stunning
+ has a similar script that Red Alert 2 had: they toned down the seriousness of the very first game and instead included some funny dialogues to help with the cheesy storyline
+ ambitious casting, perhaps the best in the entire series with Tim Curry, Peter Stormare, Jonathan Pryce and J.K. Simmons just to name a few
+ inclusion of offshore battlegrounds: almost every building can be built on water; this gives way to newer tactics
+ finally, a 3rd faction we can choose from: the Empire of the Rising Sun is an instant favourite thanks to the unit variation (plus George Takei!)

- ore fields were removed: we now have stationery ore mines that are nice but cutting of the enemy's' resources now is not as important or effective as it used to be
- campaign could have been a little longer: while there are 9 missions with each side completing the first 4-5 does not take very long
- the game desperately tries to show something new with the inclusion of the naval warfare: this is not necessarily a problem but throughout the campaign there's too much emphasis on it
- mediocre coop integration: while playing all 27 levels with a friend is pretty cool, playing solo is pretty difficult at times due to the dumbed-down A.I. that is not always helpful

To summarise: for me the number 2 will be the essential Red Alert title but this one was also pretty neat back in 2008. Running it on modern PCs can be a tad bit difficult - thanks to the uploaded guide available you can find some fixes for the game.
Axel
( 52.3 시간 기록 )
게시 일시: 2016년 5월 4일
Tanya is an anti-vaxxer.
EA tried to interbreed Generals and RA2.
Do the math yourself.
Spoke14
( 834.4 시간 기록 )
게시 일시: 2016년 5월 3일
Great game with endless multiplayer value.
Mikasa
( 3.9 시간 기록 )
게시 일시: 2016년 5월 2일
This game is really good need to buy (;
Ianfan4 Masked Gamer
( 5.7 시간 기록 )
게시 일시: 2016년 4월 28일
Its A Command And Conquer Game There Is No Need To Review It Its ♥♥♥♥ING AMAZING
(I Grew Up Playing C&C And The Age Of Empires)
Most Helpful Reviews  In the past 30 days
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추천
11.3 시간 기록
게시 일시: 2016년 5월 27일
c&c 시리즈의 정통 후계자이자 마지막 게임이라 불리우는 적색경보3(개그얼럿)입니다. 이름을 말하는 그게임을 제외한다면 확실히 정통후계자임이 분명합니다. 적절한 그래픽 당시 스타크래프트2에서 나올법한 핵심시스템등 요즘 스타2 협동전에서 사용되는 모든 바탕되는 요소가 다 여기 이게임에 있습니다. 비록 멀티를 즐기는 분이 아니라해도 싱글만 즐기시는분이라면 충분히 살만한 (세일때) 가치가 있습니다. 물론 멀티플레이는 비록 서버의 망으로 이젠 못하지만 막판 까지 연합군의 항공모함(장기전) 빈디케이터(단기전)의 벨런스가 안맞았지만 말입니다. 허나 충분히 매력적 플랫폼이였고이게임을 마지막으로 c&c시리즈가 완전히 문을 닫은건 안타깝습니다.이게임을 하고 좀더 많은 색다른 경험을 하고 싶다면 업라이징도 해보는 편을 추천합니다.
훌륭한 ost 헬마치 덕에 하는분도 많지만 말이죠
이 평가가 유용한가요? 아니요 재미있음
14명 중 9명(64%)이 이 평가가 유용하다고 함
1명이 이 평가가 재미있다고 함
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0.3 시간 기록
게시 일시: 2016년 5월 7일
+ uses the updated version of the Sage engine, the one that debuted in Generals: the effects (especially the water effects) look stunning
+ has a similar script that Red Alert 2 had: they toned down the seriousness of the very first game and instead included some funny dialogues to help with the cheesy storyline
+ ambitious casting, perhaps the best in the entire series with Tim Curry, Peter Stormare, Jonathan Pryce and J.K. Simmons just to name a few
+ inclusion of offshore battlegrounds: almost every building can be built on water; this gives way to newer tactics
+ finally, a 3rd faction we can choose from: the Empire of the Rising Sun is an instant favourite thanks to the unit variation (plus George Takei!)

- ore fields were removed: we now have stationery ore mines that are nice but cutting of the enemy's' resources now is not as important or effective as it used to be
- campaign could have been a little longer: while there are 9 missions with each side completing the first 4-5 does not take very long
- the game desperately tries to show something new with the inclusion of the naval warfare: this is not necessarily a problem but throughout the campaign there's too much emphasis on it
- mediocre coop integration: while playing all 27 levels with a friend is pretty cool, playing solo is pretty difficult at times due to the dumbed-down A.I. that is not always helpful

To summarise: for me the number 2 will be the essential Red Alert title but this one was also pretty neat back in 2008. Running it on modern PCs can be a tad bit difficult - thanks to the uploaded guide available you can find some fixes for the game.
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834.4 시간 기록
게시 일시: 2016년 5월 3일
Great game with endless multiplayer value.
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17명 중 10명(59%)이 이 평가가 유용하다고 함
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5.3 시간 기록
게시 일시: 2016년 5월 22일
I hope EA burn in Hell for all the amazing games they're ruined.
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1명 중 1명(100%)이 이 평가가 유용하다고 함
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8.1 시간 기록
게시 일시: 2016년 5월 27일
This game is known moreso for its soundtrack than its gameplay, but that said it isn't a bad game in the slightest, taking key elements from its predecessors; certain rich plot points, and the top-down realtime strategy aspects. But none of that interested me.

What interested me most was Tim Curry as the big bad Russian Premier Cherdenko... It's Tim ♥♥♥♥ing Curry!
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Most Helpful Reviews  In the past 90 days
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56.5 시간 기록
게시 일시: 2016년 3월 4일
Awesome! Great addition to a great franchise. One of the games that pioneered high production value cutscenes and live action performances that elevate the experience to a new level.

I found myself laughing at the enemy taunts (which of course were presented by seasoned actors and performers giving the game that often missing "social feel"). Classic RTS game play with three completely different play styles for each give it a high replay value. Add skirmishes and it will keep you playing long after the campaigns are done.

Recommended for fans of the franchise or lovers of RTS and strategy genre. Great graphics, great performances all around and an engaging if not over the top plot with the feel of a big budget hollywood production. I only ever write a review if I feel strongly enough to do so and this is one of them for certain.

Looking forward to future titles carrying or expanding upon the tradition that Westwood studios so boldly started when it had the Dune franchise. Command and Conquer rocks! I can't say enough about the use of live action performers and great voice talent as well. It just gives so much life to the whole experience.

Highly recommended.
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5.5 시간 기록
게시 일시: 2016년 4월 26일
In my opinion, this game is NOTHING like RA2. I don't know if I'm being biased towards nostalgic memories or it's true but RA2 is just so much better. This game is still fun nonetheless, it just doesn't have the RA2 vibe, at least for me. Would I recommend it? It's a fun RTS, it still has all the RA2 units (♥♥♥♥ Kirovs) and they added some new stuff, they also have models acting.
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7.5 시간 기록
게시 일시: 2016년 4월 27일
Ah, Red Alert 3. Although I will never forgive EA for ruining my favorite game series, I admit, RA3 is surprisingly enjoyable. This game will never live up to Westwood (now Petroglyph)'s standards, I still love the game to death.
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0.4 시간 기록
게시 일시: 2016년 3월 1일
Grate fun game! Would recommend to anyone!
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35.9 시간 기록
게시 일시: 2016년 3월 3일
It's one of the first rts i have played, 5/5.
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1.0 시간 기록
게시 일시: 2016년 3월 8일
ABSOLUTE ♥♥♥♥♥

9/11 420 69 1337 96
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38.6 시간 기록
게시 일시: 2016년 3월 12일
One of my favorite RTS games.
Yuriko Omega is strong. Throws down Kirov Bombers in an instant.
Bring in the Tesla Troopers.
ZAP*
("Kirov Reporting" in the distance)
Sweet memories.
10/10
Would make 30 Hammer Tanks and 20 Apocolapse Tanks again.
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4명 중 2명(50%)이 이 평가가 유용하다고 함
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29.1 시간 기록
게시 일시: 2016년 3월 13일
If you are a diehard CNC fan this is your next game! I love this game so much my only compliant is EA went kind of cartoony with the gameplay. But hey those live action corny cut scenes are pretty great.
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4.8 시간 기록
게시 일시: 2016년 4월 20일
It anoys me how I cna't play online because it keeps saying I can't connect to backend server.
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Most Helpful Reviews  In the past 180 days
6명 중 6명(100%)이 이 평가가 유용하다고 함
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15.6 시간 기록
게시 일시: 2016년 2월 20일
다른건 몰라도 물그래픽 하나는 정말 끝내주는 게임입니다.
이 게임이 벌써 출시된지 8년 가까이 됬다니..세월이 참 많이 흘렀네요.
게임스파이가 문을 닫아서 정상적인 루트로는 멀티플레이가 불가능합니다.
고로 c&c온라인을 사용하셔서 멀티플레이를 하시길.이거 몰라서 멀티 안된다고 흐엥 ㅠㅠ 이러시는 분들 많던데... 리뷰가 안보여서 써둡니다
욱일제국 보고 일본 제국주의 미화가 엄청나다고 하는데,플레이 해보시면 알겠지만 2차대전 당시에 제국주의로 가장 대표되는 나라로 일본을 선택하고, 그것을 풍자했을 뿐입니다.(천황 로봇타고 쿵쾅거리는거 꿀잼. 근데 지상으로 잡기엔 넘나 쌘것..)
마찬가지로 공산주의로 대표되었던 나라인 소련과, 자본주의 국가로 대표되는 미국과 영국이 나오고, 또한 그들도 풍자되여서 코믹하게 나오기 떄문에 딱히 누굴 미화한다고 볼 수는 없습니다.(오히려 까려고 한ㄱ)
당신이 반일감정이 엄청나고 대한제국을 찬양하는 사람이라면 별로 추천하지 않습니다만, 그런 것이 아니라면 단순 재미로는 꽤나 할만한 게임입니다. 스팀 세일 기간을 노리시고 구매하셔서 해보시는걸 추천.
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35명 중 29명(83%)이 이 평가가 유용하다고 함
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9.6 시간 기록
게시 일시: 2015년 12월 20일
This game is awesome. The actors are great, they all seem to be having a great time and not taking it too seriously which is the perfect tone for this game. The gameplay is incredible, action packed, fun, and classic Red Alert fun. I found this to feel similar to Red Alert 2 which isn't a bad thing at all in my opinion. The graphics look great, the bases are fun to build and the challenge starts to kick in during the campaign. So far I've only played though some of the Soviet Campaign (which they recommend you play first. But it's the best Dr. Frankenfurter as the Premier of the Soviet Union~ What more could I say? This game is great. If you liked Red Alert 2 I don't see any reason you wouldn't like this.
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20명 중 16명(80%)이 이 평가가 유용하다고 함
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6.4 시간 기록
게시 일시: 2015년 12월 29일
An underrated RTS gem that's just plain fun. I can understand why C&C fanboys might dislike it; it doesn't take itself seriously whatsoever. The Allies command Dolpins with sonar pulse weapons, the Soviets have zeppelin-like Kirov Airships, and the Empire has frickin' Warriors with beam katanas. The units, story and cutscenes are all over-the-top ridiculous but it's highly entertaining. The gameplay is as intense as ever, and the cell-shaded graphics are beautiful, especially the crisp blue water. The difficulty scaling is very good; even though I was once Masters in SC2 I went Easy mode for a nice, relaxing playthrough. Medium isn't too bad if you want to play missions a couple times. Overall this game is just excellent in every aspect.
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19명 중 14명(74%)이 이 평가가 유용하다고 함
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6.1 시간 기록
게시 일시: 2016년 1월 3일
THIS GAME BRINGS BACK GREAT MEMORIES. MUST HAVE THIS IF YOU AINT GOT IT
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5명 중 4명(80%)이 이 평가가 유용하다고 함
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1.9 시간 기록
게시 일시: 2016년 1월 19일
3/10

Poor reflection of what Red Alert once was.
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50.0 시간 기록
게시 일시: 2016년 1월 7일
I've been playing RTS games since they first appeared decades ago, but missed this one somehow till now. I didn't really like a lot of it as it was too much like an arcade game than a strategy game. Would I buy it at full price? no.. would I buy it when heavily discounted in a sale to cross it off my list.. yes..
The other C&C series are much better IMHO
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